Discussion about a new Seamly pattern drafting system

Patterns
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The discussion started in this thread: Pattern System and we aligned to continue it in an own thread.

The intention is to discuss a “new” pattern drafting system that could be implemented into Seamly or at least include some base patterns in the Seamly installation.

There are many pattern systems out there, very old ones, rather new ones, very popular ones and underrated ones.

I personally use the Systemschnitt System, which is not well known. I also tried the popular (at least in Europe, but probably worldwide) Müller & Sohn / HAKA system.

Both work with a lot of assumptions and shortcuts to make the drafting easier. If you do the drafting with a program like Seamly, this has limited advantages, as you would only need to draft the thing once, and there could use as many measurements as possible to get the possibly best fit.

Therefore, proposal would be to take full advantage of the Seamly.me files and set up a system as precise as possible.

But how shall we start?

Can we just collect all the systems out there with the advantages / disadvantages (of course, personal view!) to grain out a method on how to best draft a base pattern?

Or do you think the workflow should be different?

Every view and comment is appreciated!

I do not know exactly the policy on copying single pages from those drafting books, so we have some examples of every system. Is that okay and still covered by “citation” concept, or is this already regarded as violation of copyright?

Then everyone would need to redraft an own example…

I have most experience in men’s trousers and would love to start with this one. Could give an Example of Systemschnitt and HAKA.

The following Thesis might also be interesting in this context, it can be downloaded free:

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I’m thinking… … …

If you can find an out-of-copyright book, something like Vincent or Croonborg (but these may be a bit old), figure out the basic pattern in Seamly - both the measurements (individual & multisize) and the drafting, test the patterns, then we have a starting point.

You can either give these to @Douglas to upload to join the rest of the examples or you can write the instructions on how to draft them to achieve the results that you’ve achieved.

Either way, some sort of instructions will need to be written to advise people how to modify the patterns and add to them to create their own patterns.

I think this is a good point to start the discussions.

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The Supreme system: AKA Bluebook

The Blue Book of Men’s Tailoring: by Croonborg, Frederick T

New supreme system: AKA Redbook

New supreme system for production of men’s garments

In a nutshell… the Bluebook patterns are for “dropped shoulder” style jackets. The Redbook patterns are for a normal more modern shoulder jacket. In either case these are very period styled mens suits, and as such are much more tighter fitting than modern suits. The systems are similar in concept to every other system out there… what differs are the proportions.

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Does Systemschnitt has an English Version?

I bit far-fetched but I hope Seamly2D can collab with some newer authors, because ultimately people nowadays want to make T-shirt, Hoodie and Jeans which is not available on older books. I know Clo3D has work with Korean author Myoungok at some point.

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Not sure, but on the other hand, there is very few description in there, so a translator will do the trick. Here the explanation about the 2 books:

Schiele Schön

This system is from the 1990ies, so there are modern parts, also bath suits and quite some children stuff is in there.

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Thanks for the Link, I will take a look. Many coats there, but also trousers. Curious how they construct it.

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So my take would be to construct a basic pattern in Seamly according to the system and write down the instructions on my own. So we already would have a basic pattern with instructions in Seamly and need not care about copyright…

Will take some time as I am presently very busy with other non-sewing projects…

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That academia.edu portal is nice they always send me new PDFs: Basics Fashion Design 03~Construction [2009]

Do these links work for you? Or is there the need to register first?

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I’ve already created a basic pattern for a woman’s body on my YouTube channel using two methods.

1. https://youtu.be/2UMjbXnainw 2.https://youtu.be/DvWqZB97gdw

Now I’m writing a premium course for multi-size patterns using variables and their formulas so they automatically adapt to all sizes. I hope to finish soon.

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Your idea for a “new” pattern drafting system is good and interesting. I’m not sure if this academic article is freely available (it says open access though):

Gill, S., Al Houf, H., Hayes, S., & Conlon, J. (2023). Evolving pattern practice, from traditional patterns to bespoke parametric blocks. International Journal of Fashion Design, Technology and Education, 17(2), 144–161. https://doi.org/10.1080/17543266.2023.2260829

It’s a research on pattern drafting, comparison of traditional vs. parametric CAD approaches, and they have used Seamly2D in their research—you might be interested in it.

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While it was neat to see Seamly in the paper… this was really old and kinda painful to look at though. Ouch:

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Compared to now:

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Now I’m writing a premium course for multi-size patterns using variables and their formulas so they automatically adapt to all sizes. I hope to finish soon.

Very nice excited to see

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So as I have holidays, time to draw and translate a basic pattern from Systemschnitt:

Systemschnitt men_s Trousers basic pattern.sm2d (21.9 KB)

size_50.smis (844 Bytes)

And the translation of the description:

Systemschnitt mens Trousers basic pattern.pdf (47.3 KB)

The original description is even shorter than the one attached, but it is too short in my opinion, so I put some additional explanations in.

This is a men’s trousers pattern. Pockets etc. are to be made on taste.

If you go through, you can see that Systemschnitt uses not many measures but a lot of assumptions. This could be done better in a Seamly system, as we mostly have more measures. Let me know if you have questions on understanding how this works. Could put a lot more explanations in if needed, but wanted to keep it as close to original for the first version.

Of course there are quite some additional basic patterns in the books:

skirt

blouse

shirt

dress

blazer

trousers (women’s and men’s)

top

Only in Book one (the red one)

Next would be a basic pattern from Müller & Sohn (HAKA) for comparison.

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The academic journal was written by Dr. Simeon Gill of the University of Manchester. Seamly2d is required for all of their PhD-level research into parametric patterns and phygital fashion (where the digital representation actually matches the physical apparel product).

The problem with ALL existing systems is that they use a few body measurements, then make a series of calculations based on an idealized body shape, to generate fake additional body measurements. All patternmaking systems, even Mueller & Sohn and Hofbitzer, do this.

Grace & I are working on creating the formulas that actually create fit, using the additional body measurements that move us away from the cultural & racial & ethnic bias that is implicit in body proportions, and prevent good fit for 80% of global consumers.

The ancient method of using linen strips to save body measurements creates a premium of using only chest, waist, hips, height, inseam, outseam, across chest, armscye length, and neck circumference to create bespoke clothing. This method has a critical reliance on 1) wide seam allowances and 2) fittings on the client. Client with wide seam allowances allowed the base pattern to be adjusted away from the idealized

When tape measures came along, tailors didn’t want to change their methods. They simply wrote down the same simple list of measurements instead of saving the linen strips of each client. So the system didn’t change, we’re still reliant on the body proportions that are used to replace the measurements like arm length, front shoulder width, back shoulder width,

Now that we have 3d body scanners, we can fix this problem where a patternmaking system uses only using a few actual body measurements and fills in for the missing measurements with extensive formulas that enforce body proportions that reflect a tall, thin, northern european ideal. Because this ideal only works for 20% of the population

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Very interesting read, thank you!

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Wow, this is really impressive! In principle, nowadays we have scanners, we have 3D Kernels like OpenCascade that Freecad uses, so it would be possible to automize that in principle. Tear down the 3D point cloud into a mesh, then break apart the mesh in an intelligent way to get the pattern pieces.

That breaking apart imho is the pain point as this is far from easy to do. You could rely on traditional pattern pieces as template or create something new.

The plain white paper approach seems to be superior for those tipping points in technology advancement, but could leave to some weird looking pattern pieces. On the other hand, the evolving of traditional pattern construction has been a long process and is in many aspects perfected and mature. So maybe a hybrid approach might be the best solution. Some rule set to break apart the 3D mesh based on known and proved pattern piece outlines.

But this requires excellent knowledge in 3D math and programming skills.

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That is what I meant with assumptions. The assumptions can be replaced by measurements in the pattern. Not sure if this would then lead to the same result as the 3D method described before?

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I believe that’s the idea of using the measurement data from a 3D scanner - like 3DLook - and converting them to SeamlyMe mesurements, that can then be used to draft more precise patterns that are not just based on chest, waist, hips and height.

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Yes, that’s the plan. :smiley:

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Thank you very much! I’ll definitely try this system later.

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