Feature request: "Modify point" tool in Detail mode


I’m looking for a feature which is currently not available in Valentina: a tool to manually modify points of a Detail part. I’ll try to describe, why I think, it might be useful:

When we talk about construction of a pattern for a specific person, we are, more or less, talking about a workflow like this:

  1. decide, which pattern making system (PMS) to use
  2. take individual measurements
  3. draw a basic shape based on the PMS
  4. print it, sew a test garment and see how it fits
  5. make adjustments to the printout as a result of no. 4: perhaps narrow the shoulders, lengthen body parts, slightly move darts for shaping etc.

No. 5 is currently not possible with Valentina.

As example: I. e. you construct a shirt and end up with a result, where the shoulders are too broad. The problem is now, that the PMS you chose itself doesn’t allow you to make the necessary changes, because the shoulder length in your PMS is always a result of a calculation and not drawn directly (see: German Rundschau system by Müller&Sohn, Australian system by Gareth Kershaw, etc.). So, at the moment, you can only print the draft and make changes to the paper pattern: cut the paper, shorten (move in) the shoulder, add some paper underneath, re-draw the armscye and stick some tape onto it to hold everything in place. BUT: The paper changes are not in anyway re-usable next time and have to be done over and over again everytime you print a new draft for a new project. Obviously, those changes have to be done everytime for any kind of shirt, jacket, coat etc. for this special person with this special PMS.

Let’s see what you have done from a construction point of view: You applied a modification vector (upwards, inwards) to the outer point of the shoulder line.

The way I imagine this new “Modify point” tool is as follows: you go to Detail mode, grab the outer shoulder point with the mouse and move it a little bit in- and upwards. Changes done. Valentina would then save these changes as relative modification vectors based on the point’s original coordinates and re-apply them everytime to the same point (as long as it exists) of the Detail part. And because these changes come AFTER anything that has been done in Draw mode before, they are re-usable even if you make greater changes in Draw mode as long as the point exists. (For sure, sometimes you may have to correct your modification, especially if you make greater changes in Draw mode, but that should also be no problem. You have to do it to you paper printout, too.)

Additionally, these manually modified points should be drawn in a slightly different shape or color for better perception and context menu option “Reset point” would be useful to revert any changes back to the original coordinates.

Any opinions on this one?

Regards, Holger

The adjustments are extremely easy to do Valentina, if you create pattern for it.

  1. The basic shape in for example Müller&Sohn has some adjustable parameters. These values must be in the pattern Table of Variables. By changing these values you get the pattern correct.

  2. I always put adjustable point to places, where I expect to have a need to adjust. For example shoulder I have.

  • the drop of the shoulder point
  • the location of the shoulder seam.
  • the distance of the shoulder seam from neck and from shoulder point With these variables I can adjust the shoulder as I wish.
  1. When the basic pattern is OK, I can create what ever on top of it. I just add new points and what ever I need and create new layout. The shoulder width could be just 1 cm if needed.

Look my example https://bitbucket.org/valentinateam/valentina/downloads/timoMaleShirt.zip All you need to modify is in the Table of Variables

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Hey Stinde, I know what you mean :wink: I myself have a highly configurable M&S pattern for Valentina, as you can see in the picture (the list is much longer and has a lot more options), but I see some points here:

to 1.): you won’t get the pattern totally correct from only modifiying the construction parameters itself, in my opinion, but for sure, you can get very close (to stay in the example, I can give you a set of measurements, that result in shoulder width 3cm broader than it actually should be)

to 2.): this is your very nice addition :), but if you just use the construction description (at least the one, I have, as there seem to be different ones out), there is no such adjustable point for i. e. shoulder length, and if you don’t add this point as it simply doesn’t belong to the basic construction description, it technically can get close to sheer impossibility to insert such point later

to 3.): and 4.) that are construction based parameters and should already be included in the pattern draft

to 5): THIS is the main point here: in my M&S construction description for i. e. a slim fit men’s shirt this is simply not included nor intended to be modified directly, instead it is being calculated based on the back width and some additional values, etc.; if I had added some additional controls, like you did in 2.), ok, this might be addressed somehow, but if not, I’m stuck modifying the paper later

And generally, I also think, that there might be some body-individual modifications, which can’t be addressed simply by modifying the construction parameters, but could be addressed by a manual correction as I proposed.

to 6.) obviously, I totally agree :wink:

I understand you point.

However I’m not sure how to accomplish the interactive type of operation.

  • How a move of a point should affect to the other points?
  • If you reuse the pattern for the other person, how the modified points should be handled?

If feel that this if like the challenge in word processing. You can specify the font, weight and size word by word or you can use template or style sheet. In longer run the template or style sheet is easier.

Yes, it is challenging to change Valentina pattern by changing a value in the table. I’m currently manually maintaining a log of changes in the comment field. I have few times ‘lost’ the pattern after too many changes, because many values have relation to the other.

Do you have a solution to propose to solve your problem?

I agree with @Stinde. She very good described what is our current approach to handle this case.

Sorry, but right now your request goes beyond what we want to support. But who knows what will be tomorrow.:wink:

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Can you tell me more about this?

Yes, i agree, a solution should not be about manual way of fixing a problem.

  • How a move of a point should affect to the other points?
  • If you reuse the pattern for the other person, how the modified points should be handled?
  • Move only the point and certainly adjust the connection to other points, too. Nothing more. Compare it to moving a point of a path in a vector graphic.
  • As said, offer “Reset points” as context menu option in Detail mode and the user can decide, if he want’s to retain the mods or not.

Do you have a solution to propose to solve your problem?

I’m not sure that I understand your question, perhaps you might want to explain… But if I understand right, no at the moment, I have no solution, just altering my printout and re-do this everytime…

Yes, i agree, a solution should not be about manual way of fixing a problem.

But that’s exactly what is happening at the moment anywhere in pattern making generally, and here, too. Regarding Valentina, currently I am not able to correct everything in Draw mode, especially later in the process. I often cannot simply change points or lines, because they depend on each other in a way, that simply won’t allow me to incorporate my changes. And I’m really not able to maintain a log file like stinde, especially when I’m in a creative mood - it simply won’t work for me.

(And I like to add: sometimes changes are simply design based. Do you really want to incorporate this as adjustable control points into the pattern? This could lead to a far too complex pattern ot a very long table of variables ;))

Roman, as you know, I cannot imagine how complicated my request is, but I’d like to ask a hypothetical question, only from a technical point of view: how complicated is it to make the points of a detail part to be mouse movable, save the offset from the originally calculated point position as a vector and apply this offset after recalculating the original point coordinates again later? I know, detail parts itself are moveable, pattern piece data is moveable, grainlines are moveable. In principle, what I propose should go in the same direction for points… in principle ;)…

I like the way Valentina works. Create Pattern -> Create Layout -> Print

After the first fitting I make marks to the muslin and transfer the changes to the pattern. When i’m changing important values like Chest Girth or Waist Girth I need to know whet original value was, if the intended change is not correct. It is pretty easy to make another muslin version. Currently to easiest place to keep the log of changes is the comment field of the increment value.

I have tried to make backups, but to know after a while which is the correct one is not possible. I requires comments.

Some times I wish to have a freezed image of versions of top of the patters to be able see and compare the value changes in the pattern.

Don’t get me wrong: I absolutely love Valentina for what it is capable of! And what I propose is no basic change, it is truely meant as addition to what is already possible - to separate basic construction (draw mode) and individual modification (detail mode).

The idea of having a value history accompanied with a freezed image is a good one. It could also be very helpful to be able to print measurements and increments as separate table according to the layout…

You know, i think i understand what do you mean. And i can say yes, it is possible. But not with the current workflow. Right now details are strictly based on draft. And this is your problem. Am i right? If yes this is huge amount of work, but still possible. And even interesting addition to current workflow.

I see it as “independent” application or mode. In this stage a detail based on previous look, but you free move points as you wish. The app works as you proposed save the offset from the originally calculated point position as a vector and apply this offset after recalculating the original point coordinates again later.

Like on the picture, base is inside, hidden. :grinning:

Yes, unfortunately. The improvement that did not expect because of my experience. I can imagine now your way of working. This is like new layer to current approach. More like a fork. We need more developer to make a solution.

Yes, yes, yes. Agree. Should be in our plans. When? Don’t know.:disappointed:

Yes! Exactly! I also thought about proposing a new, as you call it “independent” mode for this :), but didn’t dare to ask… Who knows, perhaps, in future…

Nice picture, btw. :joy:

The pattern format is text based. You can use git or mercurial and save snapshots. In future it would be nice to provide this feature out of box.

Please, create new issue ticket. Maybe time will come. It highly depend on how active will be the community. For now the Seam allowance tool redesign has more priority. But idea has perspective.

Ok, I’ll have to think about how to phrase a concrete feature request, but I’ll try. And I absolutely understand, that the redesign you mentioned has a much higher priority!

All that need is to leave the link to this discussion. Nothing more.:slight_smile:

Ok, that’s easy :joy:

edit: Done that.

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Thank you, i saw.:+1:

Shoulder width doesn’t have to be a “calculated measure”. Drafting methods supplied by various books are only for reference. You work with it a couple years then start adjusting parts of the calculations and rules and make your own version of it.

In my current draft shoulder width is just shoulder width. No derived measures or anything.

If you want to make an adjustable pattern, you just need to make sure you create points for which you can make those tiny adjustments.

Put in measurements Print Make a try-on/muslin Check adjustments Go back to your Valentina pattern and use your adjust points.

For example, When starting the side seams, at 0.01 cm I have another point which I can use to make an adjustment if I want to make a tiny movement.

That’s the power of valentina.

What you’re proposing is basically a made-to-measure system where you adjust points. The power of valentina is you can draft the bespoke way, then afterwards make adjustments but keep everything bespoke.

If i’d compare a mueller.sohn draft with its original amount of points to my own draft, mine has twice as much. I can move the dart, make the dart lie deeper in the back, have it go further up the back, further down the hip, lower on the upper back, higher on the hip.

I can adjust for balance, i.e. front/back balance, by just using a value which moves certain points within the pattern itself.

All from the measurement file.