I don’t tknow the full history, but I gather this was another one of those cases where RT was not concerned with certain features of the application - some of which deal directly with actual pattern making. Anyhow…
Maybe we should think of removing the Pattern Making System items in the Prefs dialog until such time as it’s fully implimented? It’s kinda of one of my pet peaves of adding just snippets of a feature instead of fully fleshing it out before adding it to the app. This is even worse, because it’s NOT even a feature It’s like the cardinal sin of putting “Under Construction” on a website. It only confuses users. I know the Pattern Making System confused me.
I was surprised by the number of texts referenced there including the page numbers where I assume one would find the measurement charts.
The list is interesting, perhaps it belongs in a resource area instead?
For out of print books, out of copyright books, the measurement table could be included.
But that also sounds like work and time that may be better spent elsewhere.
LOL, I’d rather you didn’t because, even if it doesn’t work as it should, for a person learning from a book, it does help if the names and codes are the same as in the books. And I can vouch for that, because when I was learning, all the measuring points in different names was really confusing.
A few of the measurement charts have been uploaded onto the pattern cloud for people to download if they’re interested. I know that I uploaded the Aldrich Women’s chart.
I’m not talking about removing all the measurement names… just the drop down of selecting a Pattern Making System in the prefs. All it does is save the PMS name in the pattern file. I assume the idea was to select a system and it would automagically create an empty measurement file based on the required measurements for that sytem. The only thing it does right now is provide a list of books to look up, and IMO that should not be a function of the app, but rather a topic on the forums or an info file included with the app.
While we’re on that subject though… lets spitball a little. Assuming the idea of the PMS is to create a measurement template… would it not make more sense as a menu item in SeamlyMe? Say something like New ->Template that creates a new measurement file based on a selected PMS template? An additional idea would be to have the option to load a PMS template from a Spash / Startup screen… much like the Presonus DAW I use for audio recording does. From the startup dashboard you have the option to load for example a template - like a 16 track stereo mix. It makes no sense in the prefs? Would that mean you have to open the prefs everytime to change the system used? Also the option to save custom templates should exist… where you could add your own measurements / variables to an existing template.
Also the option to save custom templates should exist… where you could add your own measurements / variables
Currently I am exploring the template idea, because I have my own drafting methodology, and I would love to make a template for this.
The issue I am running into atm is that I use some proportional formulas, either directly or as a check against the actual measurements.
If I have height and I want to leave the value at 0 for the moment, I can’t enter nape to waist back as height /4 until I give height a numeric value.
just an aside-why isn’t chest included in the men’s section? Waist is in both the women’s area and the men’s sections.
I can’t find one that isn’t so very old (about 2 years ago) where @slspencer went into short detail about what the idea is behind this facility, but basically it came down to that it would load up all the measurement areas used in that system with the names as that system calls them (if I’m not mistaken).
Perhaps one could have your main pattern making system selected in the main prefs & override it in the pattern prefs? On the other hand, I’m wondering how many people actually know that it’s there until they’re pretty clued up on creating their patterns and start exploring other things that Seamly offers, that they could possibly use.
And it’s only really useful to people, like me, who have only discovered that learning pattern making is possible after finding Seamly, find a book & start learning. And the list of codes becomes very over-powering trying to decipher which ones the book is asking for. So I recall that having the names of the measurement areas helped me a lot when I was learning. Seasoned pattern makers understand all the measurement areas by instinct, no matter what it’s called.
I also remember wishing that I could load a template & just enter the measurements, but that’s just laziness on my part and since I have created my own standard measurements file, I don’t need to do that anymore.
I think @slspencer will know best what is needed in this department. My head goes into overdrive looking at all the different scenarios.
Yes, at a point, we were trying to get the list of codes a little shorter and I think it was decided that the women’s Bust or HighBust measurement could double up as the men’s chest measurement.
Once again, we enter into the troubled pattern making system dilemma because in some pattern making systems, the high bust measurement is called the chest measurement and I think this played a role in the decision.
To tell you about the ‘Men’s Section’, these are mostly measurement areas unique to the older methods for making patterns for men’s suits that are still used today for really high-end bespoke suits and costumes for film & theatre.
I have a work-around where I open my already created measurement file and just change the values for the next person and save it to that person’s name.
I use the Variables Table for the proportional formulas and I’ve also been thinking about using the 8/9 head theory for height measurements, just to check it out, but I’ve been a bit lazy since I made my basic tables that work beautifully
I would suggest that you enter an average height into the Height measurement that you can change once you have the person’s height.
Hint:
Once you have your pattern created, you can always create a new individual measurement file and import all the measurements used in the pattern. You can import them by going to Menu > Measurements > Import from a Pattern. You will then need to point to the pattern that you wish to import from (the pattern needs to be closed in Seamly2D). All values will be zero, even the formulas, so you will need to enter them.
I pretty much do the same thing… using a measurement file I created using the most common measurements used by several of the professional & college theatres we work with. Which to be honest will have most measurements needed to use most systems.
That being said… if a PMS template system was used, and say you can across a pattern you wanted to draft from the Supreme System - The Blue Book of Men’s Tailoring… by selecting that template you would be guaranteed to have all the neccessary measurements in the form.
Doing period men’s suiting and military ware is something our shop specializes in… so I kind of lean on that book when something calls for the “drop shoulder” period of clothing. It also deals with drafting patterns for stout men - which you will never get a normal pattern to grade and fit right. It does take many read throughs to get past the older style of English., and for adjusting drafts based on a mans height. BTW… he updated the book - The Suprememe System - The Red Book of Men’s Tailoring, where it contains many of the same styles, but updated to a non dropped shoulder. It’s also available at archive.org as a PDF. If you can believe it I printed out both books.
Yes, I have that one, too. I’ve been meaning to work my way through the Blue book first & then later through the Red book, but every day life keeps interring and I don’t have any demand for this type of clothing… No theatres, no cos-play, just easy-fit clothing for farmers
So I have not had a chance to check out what is already available- will do that soon.
I looked over the list of Pattern making systems and checked off the list according to the books I have or have access to.
I counted about 20 of them. Some I have are not listed there.
To confirm what is desired or useful to people, it is a measurement file created in Seamly Me containing the measurements pertaining to a specific system of drafting. No actual numbers applied?
Exactly. Just need the “known” measurements for the system, with at least a value of zero, as I don’t think the “formula” value can be null. The measurements would just be placeholders until a user fills in a value.
Hmmm… I wonder if we could then tie in the selected pattern making system (intentionally avoiding the use of the abbreviation PMS) pref to default to specific template vit’s?.. rather than hard coding them. And just spit balling here… what if when you select File->New for a project the user is presented a dialog asking what - if any - measurement template to use? Defaulting to the selected pattern system pref. This is how many of the audio DAW’s and video editors I use operate. The dialog could also present the “last used” template as an option… as well as “other”.
One thing I noticed right off the bat is the naming of measurements in many pattern systems is not the same as the named known measurement contained in Seamly Me.
For instance Metric Pattern cutting for menswear uses “seat” but the known measurement is hip circumference.
I can add a custom measurement called “seat” but I need to add a value so it is useable.
There is no way to Make a note to the known hip circumference measurement to indicate that in this draft it refers to “seat”
I should note I discovered that the apps already has a “templates” directory started. It has Aldrich’s womens and All measurement templates. Thing is these are kinda of buried in a tables->template directory. TABLES? huh? Of course I ALWAYS look for templates in a tables folder. Maybe the “measurements” folder would make more sense? Just sayin RT. < sigh >
BTW… IMO it should be alldrich_womens_template.vit and all_measurments_template.vit. Why? 1)I’m looking for Aldrich… not T… left TO right. A before T. 2) English… it’s a measurement template not a template measurement. 3) ALL folder / filenames should be lower case. Do that and you won’t have case issues.
but if you notice there is no diagram and the name will not be translated. The way Qt handles translations there’s no way to translate variable text input by the user. Only hard coded text designated as translatable, and only if a translation for the chosen gui language is provided in a translation file will text be translated… or more specifically “replaced” on the fly.
I know that several of the men’s systems I’ve used refer to “chest” or “chest scale” (which a lot of the rest of the draft is based on) … is really the bust circumference ./ 2… as you’re (generally) only drafting 1/2 the pattern. I happen to use the 2 custom measurements. @ChestScale and @Ease… So for ex: Bret - who has a 49 chest we get chest scale of 24.5" plus 1" ease = 49" + 2" ease OR 51". BTW - I also use @WaistScale and @SeatScale.
That being said…in a system like the Supreme System (Red or Blue) by Croonberg, it might not be a bad idea to include customs like the chest scale, as it would probably simplify things for some - even though it’s not translated. It avoids formulas like (bust_circ/2)/6 vs @ChestScale/6. It also would not preclude a user from using bust_circ/2.
Plus if you note below the Aldrich women’s template uses several customs… so there’s already a precedent. I would argue though I’d rather see measurements like @ChestScale/6 or @Bust_12 rather than @M_1 with a formula of bust_circ/12. In other words… abbreviating custom names is useless. Like WHAT is M_1 ? It’s not 1976 where we need to save every bit we can. Spell out the name.
BTW… It should be noted there are errors in the Aldrich template file… there is no @M_A23 or @M_J10 customs. Hmmm… I wonder how many years has this been like this - hiding?
I feel like I am creating more work for you just in answering these questions,
The full name does not come up as seat for me, nor can I change the full name field.
I may be missing something?
Yes, but I must give a value for the hip circumference so I can use the formula of hip_circ. I was hoping to leave all values at zero, but I could give them all a different value- maybe 10?
I am trying to make the measurement file specific to
how it is listed in the book, but for instance, I cannot just add “half back” alone because the formula for across_back_b is needed first so you can add across_back_half_b
Any way to get around this other than a custom measurement?
I think in systems that relied on using the tailor’s square and use scale or working scale, yes, those must be included as customs because they are basic to following the draft.
I think if people are trying to use a period draft and don’t understand the basics of period men’s drafting, it will make more sense to them to look for @chestscale and make the formula reflect the math. So @workingscale would have a formula of chest_circ/3 + 6"
Agree! leaving it named as M_1 is not helpful.
Just noticed:
The O14 measurement diagram and its descriptor (to wrist) does not match the information below (to elbow)
Wouldn’t it be better to just use the 1st size measurements in the series?
Ok, so I work slightly differently here… I put these into the variables, especially the Ease, because those are things that I could easily change according the the pattern I’m making. For instance, if I’m making a blouse from my basic bodice, the back ease would be 5cm while if it’s a jacket, it would be 12cm.
I can understand why one would put the scale in the .vit table, but there are so many different scales, that it would only bloat the measurement file and the loooong list of codes to choose from… - and I’ve seen this in some pattern systems where they refer to scale 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. - so I also put them into variables.
That said…
The idea behind choosing your pattern system in the Preferences in SeamlyMe was so that the actual code names of the different measurement areas would change to the Pattern System used, so that hip_circ would display as seat when Aldrich is selected and likewise in Seamly2D… even if the preferences in SeamlyMe is set to Aldrich, if you change the pattern system in Seamly2D, then the code names should change accordingly.
So… What I’m thinking…
Wouldn’t it be better to create a spreadsheet of all the codes running vertically with all the mentioned pattern systems running horizontally and the name used in the books in the code/system column?
This spreadsheet would be of help in getting the names to change in the preferences AND in creating .vit templates, as well as helping newbies to find the areas needed according to their systems (if it’s uploaded onto the wiki).
Yes, but by putting the “Chest Scale” (Or Breast) in a pattern as variable you have to do that every time you create a new pattern. If it’s a “template” measurement you just need to load that template to be able to use the Chest Scale / Breast measuerment. Besides… it’s not really a “scale” measurement - you’re not scaling anything. It’s just 1/2 the bust / chest / breast measurement that many of the (mens) systems use. It’s a lot easier to just use the system’s term (Cheast Scale, Breast, Chest) knowing that it’s already assumed it’s the bust measurement divided by 2. BTW… the waist and seat (hips) are used in a similar manner.
Besides… how can you define a ChestScale variable as bust / 2? You can’t Without a ChestScale measurement you’re stuck with for ex: “from A to B is 1 /6 Breast.”… then having to use bust / 6 / 2… or bust /12. It’s much clearer just to define ChestScale or Breast as bust / 2… then use ChestScale / 6 or Breast / 6.
Agreed:
Ease is a different story and maybe it makes more sense to use a variable for it. For example if I had to print out 6 different size jackets, and need to change the ease from 2" to 3"… it would be easier to change 1 variable, than it would 6 different actor’s measurement files. To be honest… when I created that measurement file it was back when the “variables” were still called “increments”. Had it been called variables from the start it might have been more obvious to use a variable to me for ease.
In almost all of the men’s wear drafts of a certain vintage the ease is not separated out so simply. Plus they include seam allowance, but not everywhere, unlike the women’s blocks which are nett and are more transparent with placement of ease. More modern drafts(Aldrich) are based on the older drafts but with new calculations or wording.
The drafting process use, 1/3 of the chest on the square (sometimes they call it scale) plus 1/2” or 1/8 waist on the square, etc. Square being the tailor’s square, which is marked out In those fractions.
I kind if thought that was the intent.
If you create a new file, you click on information which allows you to choose a patternmaking system (which are already listed) and it magically uploads the template of the system’s required measurements.
I can work on a spreadsheet if that is more useful rather than individual measurement files based on separate systems.
and I don’t have any demand for this type of clothing… No theatres, no cos-play, just easy-fit clothing for farmers 
uploads the template of the system’s required measurements.